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Revolution of Stealth Games
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| Raptor | Date: Friday, 2012-09-14, 20:15 | Message # 11 |
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| Quote (KingLuis123) Portable EMP, EMP Grenades
Deus Ex has already a lot of EMP stuff including grenades.
Quote (KingLuis123) Sticky camera
Thief 2: The Metal Age (2000)
Quote (KingLuis123) proximity mines
Thief 1, Deus Ex (you can use every nade also as proxi mine, including gas, HE and EMP)
Quote (KingLuis123) Remote mines
Hmm, not really the wheel, is it?
Quote (KingLuis123) I mean that it made it better, improved it. I guess we just have a diferent definition of revolutionary.
Yea, I told ya mine above.
personal note:
If you grow older it's really astonishing how many things are called "revolutinary" or "brand new"...and you just think: hey, this idea was already used ages ago.
E.g. a few years ago handy-games became popular. One of the "best" was a game called "Snake", and everyone was like "uh, wow, what a cool, brand new game". Everyone except the adults who played the game decades before at the computer, it was default part of MS Dos...
I find it annoying when modern advertising sells century old ideas as their own and brand new...and people believe it.
Don't get me wrong, nothing against using a good idea again. But pls don't call it a revolution.
"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
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| ShadowManu | Date: Saturday, 2012-09-15, 02:18 | Message # 12 |
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| Quote (Raptor) I find it annoying when modern advertising sells century old ideas as their own and brand new...and people believe it.
Don't get me wrong, nothing against using a good idea again. But pls don't call it a revolution.
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| Herbplant | Date: Saturday, 2012-09-15, 20:18 | Message # 13 |
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| Quote (Raptor) I find it annoying when modern advertising sells century old ideas as their own and brand new...and people believe it.
Don't get me wrong, nothing against using a good idea again. But pls don't call it a revolution.
I understand what you mean, and agree in part. If you take this thought as following, i would say Doom(i am from Wolfeinstein age) is the game which gave the ideas for the first person
it has almost all the things that modern 1st person has (with his fowarding sons: Quake, Herectic and Hexen)lately medal of honor, which is unsuperable in war game ideas for 1st person.
But we are talking about icons,nobody took the old games and said it is "the one" and everybody belief
I bet you never played Wolfeinstein or Doom(1 or 2)
I did, and all the games that you play now as 1st person are Doom's sons, however there are some really revolutionary games, like splinter cell, that the series are fucking amazing
I also played Thief, is a nice game, some things are really similar, but is not a legend, and the legend is not made only by the media, it's made by the sensations, feelings which you have experimented in game, at least by the reasonable players.
We know good games, your judgement was such unhappy about that imho.
Added (15/09/2012, 7:50 PM)
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Hidden and Dangerous 2, for example, is revolutionary in war stealth games. No game could superate it yet in my opinion, but Arma 2 too, that is later, has some of H&D2 ideas. Would i say that Arma is not revolutionary? of course not. Arma 2 is revolutionary also, its an icon. H&D2 nobody knows, but it had its age to be a star. Not anymore.
Added (15/09/2012, 8:18 PM)
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Quote (Raptor) "Revolutionary" means for me "to create a complete new (sub)genre of games or a feature, that is so brilliant, that every later game of the (sub)genre copies it". So same question as before: What is the revolution in Splinter Cell?
Thats why i told Wolfeinstein and Doom, games which if you play currentley, you would say "what a crap", but only this view of "revolutionary" is too poor imo, there are many factors, like linear story, realism, graphics, enviroment, soundtracks, multiplayer, and all these ones in one, like which game became in the grace of people, which game became a legend, by people likings.
If fail in anything, try again. You will be able to shake the world. Believe!
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| Raptor | Date: Sunday, 2012-09-16, 00:18 | Message # 14 |
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| So you use the term "revolutinary" for every game that's better as it's predecessor?
Imho:
A "revolutionary" game is a game which contains a good idea never seen before (e.g. Doom, C&C).
An "icon" is a game which is currently dominating its genre (e.g. GTA5, CoD MW3).
A "legend" is a former icon, i.e. a game which dominated its genre in the past (GTA3, CoD MW).
And a good game, is simply a good game. It doesn't need to be revolutinary, an icon or a legend. And just because a game is greate and the genre reference for many years, it still don't have to be a revolution.
"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
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| Herbplant | Date: Sunday, 2012-09-16, 15:26 | Message # 15 |
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| Quote (Raptor) So you use the term "revolutinary" for every game that's better as it's predecessor?
Imho:
A "revolutionary" game is a game which contains a good idea never seen before (e.g. Doom, C&C).
An "icon" is a game which is currently dominating its genre (e.g. GTA5, CoD MW3).
A "legend" is a former icon, i.e. a game which dominated its genre in the past (GTA3, CoD MW).
And a good game, is simply a good game. It doesn't need to be revolutinary, an icon or a legend. And just because a game is greate and the genre reference for many years, it still don't have to be a revolution.
Negative
I use Revolutionary for an idea that makes it impressive, no matter if a draw(for the age) has been made before, like Doom. And Doom is not the predecessor, but Wolfeinstein, then all the games, including swat are wolfeinstein sons following your idea of "revolutionary"
Revolutionary could be that game(no matter if idea is old) that creates an impressive atmosphere about the game(lets take the 1st person for example), falls in the grace of public, because is a new thing in the gender, its not a lapidation of the old, but a tottally different thing in same gender, like Swat game, that is nothing new in 1st person, but revolutionary in style, graphics, co-op stuff, etc. You could say Swat has Rainbow six as predecessor, but is totally different. The idea is not enough to be revolutionary. The way the game is made is enough(E.g. Swat).
The icon, is not the game which is dominating: Doom is an icon, and its age has passed long time ago. I bet you all here never played it(unless some older ones) and if you play you would say its a crap, but is an icon, besides the revolution "in graphics", because welfeinstein was before and brought same ideas, from the ID software, then Wolfeinstein is the True revolutionary game ever(agree in part, but many others are also, for many reasons, not the "idea" only, thats very poor thought imo).
PS: I hate when you take the convenient speech and discard the important speech from others to make your answer. That's kinda waste of time by the parts which want to expose a point of view about something, because we already know it is gonna be discarded.
And more: It has much more for "revolutionary". I am just lazy to type.
If fail in anything, try again. You will be able to shake the world. Believe!
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| Raptor | Date: Sunday, 2012-09-16, 16:37 | Message # 16 |
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| Quote (Herbplant) PS: I hate when you take the convenient speech and discard the important speech from others to make your answer.
Where did I do this? I try to pick or summarize the important arguments and reply on them.
Anyway as already said I don't like the inflationary use of "revolutionary", and I'll continue to object if you call every third, average game a revolution.
"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
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| Herbplant | Date: Monday, 2012-09-17, 13:54 | Message # 17 |
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| Quote (Raptor) Anyway as already said I don't like the inflationary use of "revolutionary", and I'll continue to object if you call every third, average game a revolution.
Then object one by one on my examples. Starting from swat. Thats why i said you discarded, we set some examples and you say you will continue objecting, but not fundamented.
Other game that you could say that uses the stealth mode from Thief and SC is Hitman Codename 47 series. But Its revolutionary, not by one old idea, but because it brought many good ideas improving an old style already existant, like doom and its sons (weapons, gameplay, movements, story, AI, disguise, noise, agency contracts, etc) and made a singular type of game regarding the 3rd/1st person games. You have the choice to be a silent assasin or a loud killer, killing everyone in the mission.
Would you not say it is revolutionary? is it only a good game? C'mon Rap. Revolutionary could be such purposal of game, some ideas are old, but never seen like that before, is totally new thing, which falls in grace of public, which we have a tottaly new and interesting feeling when we play it, even being common in 3d and 3rd/1st person kind of game.
You cannot play this game like the others, it has a tottally different purpose, causing a revolution in the realistic stealth games (and out of law, because you are a criminal, not a law enforcement good guy).
I agree in one thing with you: Revolutionary is not for all games. But the games we mentioned are for sure revolutionary or great icons.
If fail in anything, try again. You will be able to shake the world. Believe!
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| Raptor | Date: Monday, 2012-09-17, 16:18 | Message # 18 |
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| Quote (Herbplant) Then object one by one on my examples.
Ok.
I wouldn't call Swat3 a revolution. The idea to catch enemies alive in an FPS might be new (not sure on that one), but it's not a big deal in my eyes. Same goes for the helmet cam.
And Swat4 just puts Swat3 in a new scenario (another time).
Hitman is also not really a revolution. Sure it has also some cool and probably new ideas. But the ideas are just re-used by the Hitman series itself, at least afaik.
Let me give you an example for a revolutinary idea: one of the early C&C parts (don't ask me which exactly) introduced the function to simply mark multiple units at once. Click and hold the mouse button, move the mouse to draw a box at the map and every unit within the box becomes selected. Simple idea, isn't it? And now name me a single modern realtime strategy game which doesn't has this function. Imagine CoH or MoW if you had to select each of your unit separately.
For me the word "revolution" is reserved for the invention of the font, the wheel and the electricity. Might be pretty strict, but that's the way I see it.
"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
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| Luis (phone) | Date: Monday, 2012-09-17, 17:37 | Message # 19 |
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Group: Civilian
| Well, lets end this thd easy way just like i solve my homeworks. Google the dictionary term for revolution and we will see
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