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Forums » Discussions » Tactics and Techniques » Debate - Realism
Debate - Realism
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-01-09, 23:54 | Message # 1
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Since we want to play as much realistic as possible, I would like to discuss some things concerning this topic.

Pepperspray against armed and not-stunned sus
Imo this is absolute unrealistic. Image you are an armed sus. Suddenly a SWAT officer appears in front of you and hits you with pepper. Well, you are blinded. So what? You are still able to fire your gun. Since the officer is right in front of you and not more than 3 meters away, it's not really difficult to hit with your eyes closed.

C2 trick
Imo this would work in rl. Sure one could put a door-charge on a door, open it and blow the charge. So you get the explosive in another position and therefore effect another area of the room.
But ofc this would not work for 2 rooms (blow c2 in room A and affect sus in room cool as it does in swat (e.g. toilets on first floor in red libary).

Blocking doors by body
Ofc you can block a door by your body in rl. But in rl the sus could also shoot right thought the door or even the wall. Therefore it depends on the situation.
I suggest the following: it's in general ok to block doors, but the officer has to release the door after 2 successive attempts of the sus to open it.

Close open doors without exposing
Image a door that opens away from your current room and to the left side. Usually we would stack up on the right side. In rl it's simply impossible to close this door without exposing yourself to the opening of the door. We should consider this in swat also and try not to use this "door glitch".

Some rules for this thread:
- just discussion whether an action/movement in swat is realistic or not; not discussing the tactical quality here
- when adding a new action to the discussion, give it a short and precise name in bold font as a heading
- when replying to an action already named, also write down the bold name as heading and then your reply


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-01-09, 23:54 | Message # 2
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I forgot some things:

Using map knowledge
I think we should not make use of informations about the map gained from previous rounds on the same map. I have especially the following things in mind:
floor plan: When playing Red Libary you have an exact floor plan, so make use of it during planning and playing. But looking at the plan given in the briefing for Children of Taronne, you can hardly recognize more than one stairs and the outside walls. So you should act, as if it would be the first time for you to enter this bulding. Just forget how the next room looks like and how the rooms are connected. Just use the informations a real swat team would have. Same argument goes for the planning before missions start: you don't know exaclty how many wedges you'll need before you entered and explored the unknown building. (Ofc you can make an educated guess. Use your head wink )
FMJ or JHP| gas or flash: again, use just the informations given in the briefing (and your own head). E.g. briefing for Fresnal Station tells you that some sus have body armor, which imho isn't true.
Ofc you can ignore or add details of the briefing in case the briefing itself is kinda unrealistic (e.g. reading the Red Libary it sounds like you have to deal with 6 sus at the most, which is bullshit).
In case you play a custom map, just imagine a reasonable scenario and which information would be available.

Opti wand
Depends. The technique exists in rl. But the most teams do not have it. If the EL decides, that your team is one of the few lucky, well you can use it.
Anyway it's pretty unrealistic to use opti wand while the team is already compromised and therefore in dynamic moving speed. It simply takes to much time to use the wand.

Gas without masks
I'm not sure on this one. I think real gas do not vanish as fast as it does in swat. And I never saw a real swat team using gas w/o masks (considering that real masks have the disadvantage of more difficult breathing besides the influenced view).
[I really love this tactic, but in case it's unreal, we should discuss to scratch it.]

Eye cams
Ofc it's not difficult to put a camera on a helmet and transmit pictures via wifi. But other officers do not have a display in there googles to view this pictures. Anyway they could use kinda smart phone. And swat also lacks on physikal touch, which real swat teams use to stay in contact. Therefore imho the use of eye cams is ok.

Flashbangs in close range to the team
I really doubt that there is a technique which eleminates the blinding effect of flashbangs. Futhemore flashbangs also effect the ear and even the inner ear, which results in a complete loss of orientation. Thats why I think we should not use flashes in "close range" to the team. "Close range" means in case of a small room "in the same room" or "in a direct line of sight".

{Looking at the things I wrote, our gameplay may become more challennging and interesting biggrin }


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-01-09, 23:54 | Message # 3
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Quote from AST|Booone
Quote
Quote (Raptor)
Pepperspray against armed and not-stunned sus

Is realistic. All you feel when you are pepper-sprayed with Police pepper-spray is pain, burning, you will have difficulties to breathe and can't see shit.

But yes it may be unrealistic if you use it against a suspect with a somewhat strong mask, ofc. a regular balaclava, e.g., wouldn't help.

Quote (Raptor)
C2 trick

Well in real-life C2 would probably have more of a semi-circle radius of effect at the back of the door. And to compensate that we have the C2 trick, otherwise it wouldn't be necessary.

Quote (Raptor)
Blocking doors by body

I suggest to only cover the door from in front or a slight angle instead of blocking.

Quote (Raptor)
Close open doors without exposing

If you stack on the knob side, it is possible to open it IRL with little to no exposure but usually the officer IRL would back right up if the squad does not plan to enter. We can't really make this more realistic and imo exposing ourselves a bit would be a bit stupid.
Another thing: IRL you would be able to toss a flashbang or any grenade around a corner with only exposing your arm and you can't do that in SWAT anyway (while AI teammates can).

Quote (Raptor)
Using map knowledge

This has always been a problem, but seriously. If your leader tells you to enter a room that you know (from experience), you will be shot right away you wouldn't just enter would you?
So I'd say: You can't help it.

Quote (Raptor)
Opti wand

It's both boring and impractical (takes too long). I wouldn't use optiwands personally ever if I weren't ordered to.

Quote (Raptor)
Gas without masks

Well. We use it a lot and it helps us a lot but it definitely is unrealistic. I'm not sure it either.

Quote (Raptor)
Eye cams

I agree with your points, as it compensates for other inabilities to communicate, e.g.

Quote (Raptor)
Flashbangs in close range to the team

I'd say it's okay if you have somewhat of space left from you and the 'hot' flashbang or if the flashbang is parted from you by a wall.


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-01-09, 23:55 | Message # 4
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Quote from SAS_Random

Quote
Pepperspray vs unstunned armed subjects...bad idea.

C2 Trick: the construction of the door within the frame prevents a radius effect. Normally, it blows mostly inward. If the door were to be opened before detonation you would have more left to right debris than normal. This would send some fragments in the direction of the team's side of the door. Also, there is no telling how the hinges would hold up under the tortional stress, you would most likely end up with a door swinging wildly on one damaged hinge within the door frame area causing the team to be delayed through the opening.

Body-wedging: bad idea for the reasons you mentioned. Not realistic in the smallest way. I would further state that even the very common act of closing an opened door to an uncleared room is bad for the same real life reasons. If tangos are set up inside a room to defend it and they observe the door mysteriously closing...it would take about .5 seconds to determine which side of the door you are on (if they saw your arm reach for the door, you are on the knob side; if they only saw the door close, you are on the hinge side) and then they would quickly remodel the walls on that side of the door.

Gas no masks: Thats a tough one. The game has the gas dissipate in about 8 seconds. I never actually timed it, but I think that is very close. For gameplay, they rightly took it down from the several minutes it would take inside a structure for enough air to exchange to make it breatheable. Officers often wait outside the effected area without masks on, but anyone even close to the area would have masks on in case wind direction changed or current through the structure changed. At any rate, CS is not a room clearing tactical aid. It's for softening the target by weakening their resolve and impeding their ability to make a focused defense when you do move in and assault. Some rooms are just made to give advantage to the tangos even when using flashbangs, so in these situations, I think CS with no masks prior to a flash or sting and clear is forgiveable.

EyeCams: They are currently mounted on rails on a swivel mount just behind the foregrip of the M4. They are used for wifi transmission of any pin hole cameras set up in the room where suspects have barricaded themselves so that teams know the layout and position of threats within a room with intel that is accurate right up to entry. It's not inconceivable that helmet cams would work the same way. Mostly helmet cams are used for remote viewing by the command and control. The reason why I think this is acceptable is that in real life you can feel the presence of officers around you, you can hear their movements, their breathing, they will touch your shoulder, etc...in the game, this is lost. I think the camera view gives you back some of this situational awareness that you would normally have in real life.

Real SAS teams toss flashbangs into the air for mid-air detonation and they are already in the room when it goes off sometimes....they are conditioned to ignore the flashbang and trained to avoid the flash effect even on multi-burst flashbangs. Earplugs now allow soft tones to penetrate like in whisper comm but restrict loud tones...like flashbang detonation. Use in close proximity to the team would certainly be accepted. When you think about it, flashbangs almost always detonate closer to the officers than they do to the tangos. Flashes are deployed just inside doorways and the officers are closer to the doors wink

And that, my friends, is my unsolicited opinion tongue


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-01-09, 23:55 | Message # 5
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Pepperspray against armed and not-stunned sus
Quote (Booone)
All you feel when you are pepper-sprayed with Police pepper-spray is pain, burning, you will have difficulties to breathe and can't see shit.

Anyway you are still able to raise your gun and shoot. I agree with random: bad idea.

Blocking doors by body
Quote (Booone)
I suggest to only cover the door from in front or a slight angle instead of blocking.

I really like to hear opinions, but i love arguments biggrin

@Random: Basically I agree. But in a lot of swat scenarios you have sus, that will not shoot through walls or doors (e.g. scared kids in the A-Bomb). Futhermore it's not possible in Swat4 wink Anyway really dangerous tangos in a defending postition could also shoot through doors or walls just when they hear a bang blowing up in the next room.

At least blocking and releasing the door after the first try of a sus should be ok, or not?
[Again I do not want to discuss which technique we should/will use, but which technique is realistic enough for us to allow it.]

Close open doors without exposing
Quote (Booone)
If you stack on the knob side, it is possible to open it IRL with little to no exposure...

You didn't get me right, probably my fault. Let's rename this topic to "Close doors without exposing".
[I meant something like "Close doors which are open without exposing". No arguing about open doors without exposing, just about closing them.]

Using map knowledge
Quote (Booone)
If your leader tells you to enter a room that you know (from experience), you will be shot right away you wouldn't just enter would you?

To be honest, I would enter (Btw: there is no room where I could get shoot biggrin ). And this point means in first place the general planning and acting of the EL.

Opti wand
Quote (Booone)
It's both boring and impractical (takes too long). I wouldn't use optiwands personally ever if I weren't ordered to.

So, if you are the leader we represent a swat team whose budget doesn't allow to buy an opti wand. Anyway thats no reason to prohibit the use of this item in general.

Flashbangs in close range to the team
Quote (Booone)
I'd say it's okay if you have somewhat of space left from you and the 'hot' flashbang or if the flashbang is parted from you by a wall.

Agree.

Quote (SAS_Random)
Real SAS teams toss flashbangs..

Well we are (mostly) swat and not SAS wink

Quote (SAS_Random)
Flashes are deployed just inside doorways and the officers are closer to the doors wink

But outside the room, therefore they are not effect neither by the flash/lightning nor by the bang/loud noise. Because both spread inside the room, not penetrating walls well

C2 Trick
@Random: I see the point of fragments flying toward the team, but using normal stack we would have pretty good cover. And since the explosion is not well directed (because of the missing door frame), I do not see the tortional stress for the hings. I must admit in rl I only handle "explosives" at New Year's Eve smile

Gas without masks
To sum up: it's kinda unrealistic but ok, since we do not have the oppertunity to use CS gas in a realistic way.

Quote (SAS_Random)
And that, my friends, is my unsolicited opinion tongue

Your opinion is not unsolicited but very welcome here wink (otherwise we would discuss this in an internal area smile )


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-03-12, 23:39 | Message # 6
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Found another issue in the SAS forum

Quote (Random in the SAS forum)

Just think of the SWAT tactic of pressing your body against a door that has c2 set on it and running full speed into it until it explodes and you go hurtling into the room. I call this tactic Explosive Door Humping. [...] Total crap. Completely unrealistic garbage. As a side-note, if you are carrying a tazer while you do this, you would make a great RAU member. Contact pumaseal via xfire.)

-> So stay a little back from the c2 explosion (no mention of the taser rush needed wink )

@Random: your side-note really made my day roflmao


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
ShadowManuDate: Tuesday, 2012-03-13, 02:06 | Message # 7
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I prefer entering with a Breaching Shotgun in my hands biggrin

 
SAS_RandomDate: Tuesday, 2012-03-13, 04:22 | Message # 8
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I was in rare form today on the forums. Raptor is good at finding tactical tidbits--even in the middle of a ranting post I made. Maybe the next name for Major's group will be EDH ;-)

SAS_Vet_Random
Lt. Colonel (Retired)
22nd SAS Elite Virtual Regiment
www.sasclan.org
 
RaptorDate: Wednesday, 2012-11-21, 16:35 | Message # 9
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Spectators
Hmm, I though that this would be obvious but some recent games proved me to be wrong: dead people and ghosts can NOT speak. So any spectator, no matter if dead team member or just joined, just shut up. Thx.

Added (21/11/2012, 4:35 PM)
---------------------------------------------
Taser
I found an interesting thought in the actual SAS newsletter:

Quote
Tasers would not be used against armed suspects due to potential muscle seizure of a trigger finger within the area of the trigger guard.


I do not agree that the risk of random shoots fired bans the use of taser against armed persons completely. However it's something to consider when weigh up the possible alternatives.
But for me the taser stays an option, especially because the hand-to-hand fighting abilities in Swat4 are pretty limited.


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
SAS_RandomDate: Friday, 2012-11-23, 15:16 | Message # 10
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The last thing I'll add to the taser discussion. I have a tactical manual from a major metropolitan police dept. In it, there is a dept policy for the use of tasers. Nowhere is it mentioned to use against someone with a firearm. Other types of weapons like edged weapons, blunt force weapons, hypodermic syringes, chemicals, throwing weapons are all detailed. Do you think they just forgot about discussing firearms vs. tasers, or do you think they skipped it for a reason?

SAS_Vet_Random
Lt. Colonel (Retired)
22nd SAS Elite Virtual Regiment
www.sasclan.org
 
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