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Content - External Sources
RaptorDate: Wednesday, 2012-01-18, 02:26 | Message # 1
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http://the-breeding-place.com/

Mb you already played on the swat4 server "The Breeding Place". This community takes a different approach concerning team play. We mostly use a formation based on an element leader. They rely on pure teamwork without a leader, but also with a set of nice tactics.

If you asked me, "teamwork style" can work pretty well for small teams. It's almost kinda perfect for 2 officers. Also 3 officers can work easily this way (again take a look at "The Tactical Advantage" wink ). Adding a 4th officer things start to get complicated. And I personally can't imagine 5-guy-teamwork without a leader (but mb that's because of a lack of experience...).

Sure this style demands that every teammember knows the tactics pretty well, but actually our EL-style demands this also.
The team needs to discuss eq and general tactic approach, which is done by EL on our server.
The teamwork style gives you more flexibility. But it also needs more concentration, because you steadily change your position in the team and therefore your duty/AoR. It's kind of similar to our liquide formation.

They have written down their tactics in a nice pdf file (follow the link above -> open and clear -> tactics). They have some nice thoughts, especially concerning training. Here you can find some notes made by me highlighting differences to AST tactics and personal evaluation.


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Wednesday, 2012-01-18, 02:33 | Message # 2
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http://www.gametracker.com/clan/sas22evr/forum.php?category=112756

Some thoughts from SAS_Random and other SAS members.


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
SAS_RandomDate: Wednesday, 2012-01-18, 13:37 | Message # 3
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Some good ideas about uses for some uncommon options in the response menu. The biggest hindrance is the constant use of the command menu. I think most people should remain quiet and focused on their weapon. Having an EL allows that and is better than requiring constant communication between team mates via command menus. Playing like this would be better suited to voice comms. Better still to train with your partner so that no communication is needed because you already know what you partner will do when he encounters a turn off or a T junction or a stairwell, or an open door, etc.

Mostly, very good and very common stuff. Lots of stuff that is very similar to what is found here and on SAS forums.

I like on page 10 how they don't breach corners (expose beyond an unknown corner) even within the same room when clearing. One thing that I'm trying to teach Rcts now is not to clear blind corners without back-up or a decision from the EL.

I agree with putting the man with the detonator on the opposite side of the door from the pointman so the grenadier can see the countdown. I do that all the time, but it's not official SAS tactic, so no one else does it :-(

I like putting the man with the breaching shotgun on the knob in a way, but I would keep a coverman with him and move everyone else to the hinge side. It's not bad but doesn't really save you much time getting into the door because you have to be back down the wall far enough that you are not exposed when the door blows inward. As long as the breacher stays still, the team can easily get around him and they are protected by the door as well. Also, it seems to require the grenade to enter from the hinge side and it's harder to get short 12 placement that way. The second man on the breacher side can't throw it because he's covering the man who is holding the shotgun. So in order for the bang to bounce off the door to short 12, now you need 3 guys on that side. Everyone may as well just stay on the knob side behind the shotgun breacher.

On page 9 they show a two man entry where the left side of the room is cut off. Staying outside and covering 12 while allowing enough room for the coverman to enter and move right is a good tactic but may cause a jam in the door based on the game's tendency to make your character wider than he appears to be. In this situation, the pointman should determine if there is a threat to 12, if so, he should enter and slide left to clear the opening for the second man to check behind the door without the pointman exposing himself to any threats that may be behind the door. If there is no threat to 12 he should, in my opinion, continue to sweep right and the coverman would enter behind him and cover the left side.

On page 12 I like the grenade bounce off the floor and door to get it to land just outside the radius of the door. I use that all the time when I'm playing alone...since it's not an SAS tactic ;-) I have brought it up before but people seem to like slamming the grenades hard off the door :-) Maybe I'll try to get this implemented again.

The scanning person should stop when he sees a suspect's back or barrel of weapon etc and retreat. He should not push the situation and force himself into having to take the shot. He can retreat and decide to toss a nade and possibly make the arrest.

When crossing a turn off dynamically, the pointman should take the far side by using an echelon maneuver. He should not swing around the corner crouched. His coverman has to travel behind him and hope he doesn't shoot him. Especially if the pointman makes a sudden side step and his head pops up into the coverman's reticle.

Traveling down a wide hall should be done in a ^ formation with pointman at the point crouched and the 2 and 3 men standing to his sides. In a two man team, they should be together with one facing rear. The problem is the two man T junction. Where above I said it's better to be on opposite sides and do coordinated button hooks. As a two man team approaches a T junction they should split to opposite sides. They can still see enough of the rear to ensure it's not left uncovered.

Most of these tactics are written from the standpoint of working with a partner and not a full element. I think certain things like wide hallways can be done the same way as narrow hallways. If you put both officers on the same side of a T junction, it's exposing the pointman's back for a second. I think a timed button hook move from officers on opposite sides of the hall is best.

On page 20, the stairs tactic is SOP for my team. It's good stuff.

On page 21, I don't know what he means by enable arrest only on the server.

I like some of the drills, they could be fun.


SAS_Vet_Random
Lt. Colonel (Retired)
22nd SAS Elite Virtual Regiment
www.sasclan.org
 
RaptorDate: Thursday, 2012-02-02, 07:24 | Message # 4
Group: Commander
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http://sruunit.tk/ (tactic manual)

Tactics of SRU. They are in parts similar to ours, but differs also in some points.

They use just one eq and one formation. Imho this doesn't fit the different maps and different players online with different skills. I don't like to restrict eq generally, every tool and weapon can be useful when used in the right way in the right situation.

I'm not sure how exactly they use the bsg. Why does the coverman can take it?

Both "Double Door Scan" and "Covering Scan" are dangerous because one officer is to close to the door for a good scan. See tactic lesson2 http://ast.ucoz.org/forum/21-162-1

The RoE are pretty simple, but I don't like the phrase "Kill him". Sounds like give him at least 3 head shots to be sure the fu**er is really and finally dead.

I share their opinion about game bugs, see the realism thread http://ast.ucoz.org/forum/21-165-1
But why is sneaking up behind a sus and taze him unrealistic? (ofc with lethal cover in case you get noticed)


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Sunday, 2012-02-05, 10:20 | Message # 5
Group: Commander
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Some vids for a lonely evening wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfBffSr1udk
really nice room clearing, showing importance of AoR and correct moving (starting after 35 seconds)
(full version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAUoyrran_I )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4okkkLsY5kI
Gabriel Suarez talking about tactics in general and showing the angular search (starting 6:30 min)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLdGdctTM4&feature=fvwrel
2 Man Room Clearing Dynamic: showing AoR, speed and intersecting areas of fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIKUPcC9yzo
SAS entry methodes: frame charge ftw, fatal funnel my ass biggrin and the dynamic hammer remindes me somehow of the dwarf hammer in fantasy games smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3eAiJ4eL9A
SAS CQB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etjj5FJ9y30&feature=related
Gabriel Suarez talking about gun safety and the concept of a complete arsenal


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Tuesday, 2012-02-07, 16:47 | Message # 6
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http://www.forcetactics.com/downloads.php

Under "Articles on Use of Force" one can find some stuff about gun fighting in the real world and mental attitude towards violence. But it's more aimed at selfdefense of armed citizens than swat tactics. Nevertheless I like to read such stuff wink


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RaptorDate: Saturday, 2012-02-11, 23:23 | Message # 7
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http://utf.ucoz.com/forum/21-65-1#549

Tactics manual of UTF. Mostly basic stuff, not really brilliant. I wrote some comments about it in their thread.

(Check also the other threads in their tactical forum section wink )


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
SAS_RandomDate: Sunday, 2012-02-12, 12:17 | Message # 8
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Kinda scraping the bottom of the tactical barrel with that little gem, eh Raptor? wink Anyway, the title of "how to play when drunk" followed by thanking all the wonderful chaps at TGC and MHS sort of let me know that there wasn't going to be much in there of real value.

But I read it. And I have no comment. My mother told me I shouldn't pick on the handicapped.


SAS_Vet_Random
Lt. Colonel (Retired)
22nd SAS Elite Virtual Regiment
www.sasclan.org
 
RaptorDate: Monday, 2012-02-27, 13:30 | Message # 9
Group: Commander
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http://www.ulozto.net/xmv57BM/tactical-manuals-rar

Tactic manuals uploaded by Ice. Containing:
- Lead and Breeed tactics (see post above)
- manual from UTF
- an external presentation concerning hostage rescue
- eBook "The Tactical Advantage" by Gabriel Suarez, this book is basic of many of our tactics


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
TheIceManDate: Tuesday, 2012-04-03, 22:00 | Message # 10
Group: NCO
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DTKretens SQUAD LEADER TUTORIAL

How to efficiently lead, and manage a team

Contents:

1.Introduction
2.How-To
3.Planing
4.Execution
5.Route
6.Man Management
7.Conclusion

1.Introduction

First things first, i would like to elaborate what made me write this tutorial. I have been playing on SOG servers for a rather short time and i have played with a nice sample of players. Ranging from good to bad, i really had fun playing in those servers. The problem is very simple, being leader is a totally different aspect of playing swat, and i think that many people don't understand that. What makes leader role unique is its style of gameplay. Rather than maybe clearing rooms or being a wand-man leader takes a different approach to the game element. While it may sound simple, issuing orders is not an easy process. Each member of the team has to know its orders, in every second of the game, and there must be no misunderstandings.

2.How-To

How to lead? Why is it a different from normal gameplay?

To be a squad leader, your job basically becomes issuing orders to your team and letting them know exactly what needs to be done and in what fassion. It is different from "normal" gameplay because you wont be always in the heat of battle, entering the room first, shooting at suspects at a regular basis, you will rather take care that each and every member has specific orders on how to enter a room, what area to cover, what methods of clearing to deploy...Sure, there are situations where a situation will demand that you step in and to certain things mentioned above (such as too few officers are available due to being either incapacitated, busy or something else), but in reality a leader should be pulling the strings without exposing himself too much. He is too valuable to be killed.

What does it take to be a leader?

To be a good leader you have to have extensive knowledge of the following:

Game basics - Issuing orders, Movement, Basic Tactics, Room clearing...
Maps - Knowing every map inside-out is a prequisite to a good plan, wich is a must for every mission

*1.)Most of these things are explained in one of tutorials that can be found in this forum so take a look at these

*2.)Learning maps is very easily accomplished with playing games. Those things come with expirience.

Is a leader really needed?

Tell you the truth, in most cases he is needed. Perhaps when playing with people you know and/or are next to you leader really isn't needed but playing over the internet, i would say that leader is needed. A team needs someone to pull the strings to avoid things like double-orders, planing and gear conflicts...

3.Planing

The planing phase of the game is a phase in wich you pick teams, choose gear and layout a general course of actions in a map (route), in that order.

Pick teams
Choose gear
Route

1.Pick teams - If you are planing on using only one element, this is really easy. If more than one, things can get a little more complicated. Picking teams is more than just telling people who to follow. In most cases though, you will tell your team the number of elements and their respective leaders. Advanced teamplay includes telling the entire entry order (who enters rooms in what order, who uses bangs, who arrests, who uses wand...). Once you got team(s) and leaders picked you are ready to go to next phase of planing

2.Choose gear - Choosing gear is very important. Execution of your plan will be directly related to the gear you choose. Rather than giving specific instructions, i suggest giving some basic guidelines, like taking gas, masks, how many wedges, how many optiwands, usage of lethal or non-lethal weapons...

*What i noticed, is that almost all leaders like to overuse wand wich is in my opinion bad. Usage of wand takes a lot of time, and can be done by any other member carying a wand, during wich you can concentrate on orders. Using wand on leader is what i would recommend in two situations:
a.) If you do not know the map entirely and need a better insight to the layout of the room you are going to enter.
b.) Every other teammember is busy doing some more urgent job other than wanding

3.Route - Since swat has such a wonderful level design, each map can be played in more than one way. Not every route is equally efficient but every route has its own advantages and disvantages. Since route is in my opinion a very important part of planing, i will explain that in a separate chapter later.

4.Execution

If you made a good plan, execution should be much much easier. Since swat is based on entering rooms i will make a short list of everything a leader must do BEFORE a room is entered and cleared

Establishing Perimeter
Stacking
Choosing entry method
Clearing room
Arresting

1.Establishing perimeter - Covering all possible approaches to the door is necessary to avoid your team getting killed from behind or any other direction other than the focused room.

2.Stacking up - While this may sound trivial, stacking is one of most crucial things before entering. I've seen so many failed missions and dead officers (including myself) just because a door wasn't stacked properly. Always stack in a way that you are not in the fireline. Change the stacking direction according to reports from your wandman. Also, entry order is crucial. Never put a player throwing flashbang or using c2 enter the room first. They should be stacked lower in the stacking order to ensure they are ready for operation upon entering room. You as leader, under normal circumstances, should be entering last, or among last officers.

3.Choosing entry method - C2, Flashbang, Gas, Sting, Less-lethal, lethal... are all options to consider when entering room. Chose your method and order the team to execute.

4.Clearing room - The door is open, your desired method is chosen and a team commences entry. If you planed well, chances that your entry will be successful are very high.

5.Arresting - Always wait for room to be clear before starting to arrest civilians and suspects. I've seen countless deaths because some players (me included) started arresting suspects before room was clear. Complied suspects and civilians can wait forever (at least in vanilla SWAT), and there is absolutely no reason to make arresting any more urgent.

5.Route

Planing a safe route is very important part of every plan. By planing your route across the map you are trying to reduce risk to both your team and innocent civilians. I'd like to compare every SWAT4 game as a game of shepherd (swat team) and sheep (suspects). You are in essence trying to corner every suspect in a way that his only way out is blocked by your SWAT team. This means that suspects should have no way of coming up behind your back in every part of the mission. Having that in mind the tool that SWAT team uses to make this possible is door wedge. By blocking critical doors you can accomplish what i mentioned earlier. Since door wedges take up a tactical slot in every mans gear, you have to optimize the number of wedges used for every mission.

Now that i covered the basics, let me give you an example, this is c/p from another topic:

Now imagine that this is a a room and that numbers represent doors. Obviously you have choice where to enter the following corridor and seize the room mentioned. Now, lets check our options. Lets say that the suspect number and position are totaly random here (so, there may be none in the room)
6* - Very good vision to two long hallways, only 2 possible ways for suspects to threat from.
7* - vision to only one hallway at 12°, followed by an imidiate opening to the room, lots of doors to cover
8* - Good vision to two hallways, 3 doors to cover
9* - Good vision to two hallways and 1 close door to cover, although visible.

Obviously your preferred entries would be 6* or 9*, preferably 6*. It takes only 2 officers to fully cover your approach from that door, Good visibility to huge hallways ensure that you know exactly what you are facing, and presents smallest or no danger at all of getting in crossfire. Regardless of suspect number or position, number 6* always gives you smallest amount of officers needed to cover all possible directions of threats. That is why i think that the planing itself is mostly independent of the suspect number. Only in the case that you know that certain rooms have 0% probability of suspects can this be an exception.

Now while this problem may sound easy to solve, missions have more complicated maps and require more planing. I'll give another example this time a bigger map to plan, focusing on planed route in general:

To clarify, x marks the door (not the scot this time ) and arrow is your entry point. Your mission is (as always) to clear all rooms of suspects. I have little doubt that there is more than 1 solution that is effective, but i do have certain guidelines. First, wedging a room that has no other exit but the door you are wedging is not recommended. There are exceptions as always, but keep in mind that you will have to come back and clear that same room later since you have no other means of getting information through other doors (mirroring doors). Same as before, wedging a room with only 1 other exit is something that is viable in certain situations but should be avoided as much as possible. The case in wich you do wedge a room with only one additional exit is when you can reach the other door later in mission and mirroring that door will provide you with more usefull insight on the room. Putting wedges on doors behind you might be a good idea in situations where the maps are made in a "circle" kind of design to prevent the suspects from coming up from behind you. Now i will write a few usefull short tips on wedge use:

1.Optimize - Always project your route to use as little wedges as possible to make the route safe, yet allowing other tactical gear for you to take.
2.Undo - Try not to cut previously put wedges as much as possible. Instead, plan to make them permanent.
3.Safety first - Don't be hesitant to use wedges if the situation cannot be solved in any other equally safe way.

Having this in mind i will write down one possible solution, although please note that while this may sound good on paper, you obviously know that room layout is not the only thing to consider when planing your route. Certain rooms are better suited for entry than others even though it may not seem so on plans, so make sure to always use the rooms that provide safest route to mission completion.

Quote:
Start, block doors 1,2 wedge door 5. While blocking door 2, enter through door 1, continue through #3 and clear hallway. Block door #4, and double entry the room between #6 and #7. Now stack at #4 and double entry between #2 and #4. Next, block door #11, clear the room at #8. Mirror at #10 and clear hallway, wedge #16 and #17. Next, enter through #11, #12 and #13. Block #15 and clear #14. After that, continue through #15 and double entry from #9 and #17

6.Man Management

I will be honest to say that this is the most neglected part of leadership, id even go so far to say that this is what truely great leader from an average one. In addition to planing and issuing orders a leader must take great care to manage his team carefully. Man management is a process of leading your team in a way that all members of the team have an equal amount of "job" and responsibility. This may sound a bit far-fetched but i have seen a lot of leaders that like to do things all by themselves, or using only one more officer as backup, leaving the rest of the team to sit and wait for the leader to pick a new room to clear. Rather than writing down a way to successfully man manage a team, i will give some tips on how-to.

-Always divide the "work" evenly between the team.
-Your team is ONE unit, treat it as one.
-Never blame a specific team member for failiure, you fail or succeed as a team
-Don't pre-judge people by their mistakes
-Always compliment the team as a whole, avoid complementing individuals.
-Remain calm in all situations
-Respect all team members, just because you are leader does not make you any more worth than any other member of the team.
-Leader without a good team is the same as a team without a good leader

7.Conclusion

Well, i hope you learned something from what i wrote in this tutorial. I really hope that i wrote it in the right sub-forum since i spent a little time trying to find the most suitable one. There were so many things i wanted to write down, but they just flew out of my head so i will add things as they come back. What i would like to say is that there is nothing more enjoyable for me in swat than have a good leader and follow his orders. I like to be a leader sometimes, and i always try to do it in a best way possible. Just remember these keypoints before the start of every leadership:

1. Plan
2. Execute
3. Man-Manage

and i think you will do fine.

I would also like to thank entire SOG team for providing great servers for tactical gameplay, their super-quick and firendly admins and above all, all those players i've played, lead, and was lead by.

Regards,

DTKreten

SWAT Guide #2

Breaching Tactics

Chapters

#1 Stacking up

#2 Preparing to Breach

#3 Breaching

#4 Securing the Room

#5 Arresting the suspects

( Only Tactics you can use In Game )

( Also takes care of the AI )

Chapter #1
Stacking up
Approaching

As we all know, stacking up is the most used tactic by SWAT.

Its main purpose is to ready the breach the safest way for the officers.

To do a correct stack up, the approach of the door is quite important.

Best example is from a real life situation:

As you can see we have 2 Officers at the door, preparing the Breach sequence.

Then we have a 3rd Officer covering the window to ensure noone thinks of shooting from this point.

And atlast but not least we have the 3 Officers preparing to Breach into the house.

These Officers have all possible threats covered before entering.

In alot of houses and facilities there are always alot of doors in the room you enter. Be sure to have all doors covered while approaching the next door you want to breach.

Stacking up

This is where it gets interresting and dangerous.

In SWAT 4 all doors have both directions to open wich is not very realistic. No matter what we have to deal with it and it only works with us.

When stacking up your team mostly splits up and moves to both sides of the door, while 1 officer Mirrors the door.

At this point there can always come a suspect through another door and eventually ambush your team.

A simple example:

Red Team: Red 1 is Mirroring the door, Red 2 covers the door/opening to the right of Red 1

Blue Team: Blue 1 and Blue 2 are covering the door/opening at Red 1´s Six

Element: Assits Red 2 covering the door/opening

This way Red 1 is always ensured that he has cover when mirroring.

This Tactic changes at all times since it depends on your team and the Geometry of the room.

Another example

Here Red Team has mirrored the door and identified 2 suspects.

Element has stacked his team up accordingly to the first example, however, on breaching Red Team would be completly exposed to the left suspect and he/she would most likely open fire on Red.

The only correct way here is to stack up your entire team to the left and let Red team breach without getting exposed as soon as the door opens.

( This was taken from an actual In Game situation where Red Team got KIA because of this )

Chapter #2
Preparing the Breach

At this point it is vital that everyone is well prepared and knows whaat will go on and how the room looks like.

If your team isnt prepared it will end in Chaos and unecesary loss of lifes.

The first thing to do is to Mirror the door, using the Optiwand.

When using this tool be sured to have someone to cover you since you are completly exposed.

When mirroring we use a simple clock tactic to tell everyone excatly where, what is inside.

In this example we have a suspect at 10 o clock and a suspect at 1 o clock.

If a object like a chair or table are in the line of sight, simply say: "Object at [Clock number] is blocking the sight."

Then the whole team knows that there might be more suspects or civilians in the room.

Next thing to conclude is how the room should be breached.

Remember: SWAT is a life saving organisation.

If you are facing multiple suspects, facing the Breaching door and there is no way around, it would be wise to use Gas, Flashbang or even Stinger to stun the suspects before entering.

SWAT only has the door to enter and if the suspects are covering this area, the Officers will run into direct fire.

Long story short: Use grenades whenever you can to save not only your officers lifes but also the suspects´s and Civilian´s.

When everyone is briefed and ready to go its time for the "Fatal Tunnel".

Chapter #3
Breaching

The so called "Fatal Tunnel" is the most dangerous part of most SWAT tactics.

Since we sadly dont have nearly so much equipment as the Real SWAT has we have to work with the 4 Things we have to open the door.

#1 If the door is open, the Officer closest to the Door handle opens the door.

#2 As a SWAT member you have the multitool to lockpick the door. The suspects wont notice this and dereby not realise that SWAT is about to enter.

#3 Breaching Shotgun is my personal favorite when it comes to breaching.
It doesnt stun the suspects but it forces the door open, without injuring people behind the door.

#4 C2 is a explosive, and it should be handled as such. The good aspects of this Breaching Charge is that it stuns the suspects behind the door and forces the door to open. Eventually if the suspects are too close to the door they will get injured or even killed.

When the door is open its time to either Go into the "Fatal Tunnel" or trow in a grenade.

Chapter #4
Securing the Room

When clearing the room it is neccesary that the first Officer inside the room keeps on moving or he will block the following officers.

It should kinda look like this when entering

Have in mind that this is not locked at all, it changes with the Team and Geometry of the Room.

If the officers are equiped with Less/Non Lethal weapons the suspect can quickly be forced to surrender while keeping on moving.

However if the Officers have Lethal weapons at hand they are only allowed to shoot if they are in danger of getting killed and some Officers seem to stop while thinking.

Therefor I prefer Non/Less Lethal in most cases.

When the entry was clean and the Team procceds in the Room it is neccesary to check all corners and still keeping eachother covered.

When your corner is clear and all suspects and Civilians have complied,
you tell everyone with a Radio Message " Clear" that they dont have to worry about that area. When everyone has comfirmed that the room is clear and all doors are covered,its time to arrest the suspects

Chapter #5
Arresting the suspects

Since suspects in game dont run away. ( In TSS they do) when they have surrendered its quite easy to arrest them.

But always have a buddy with you to cover you while arresting.

Suspects tend to grab theyr dropped guns again and start to shoot at everyone in the room.

To prevend this from happening its a good idea to grab the guns right away or have them covered.

It should look like this when arresting

(except the cat() ofcourse and that your buddy is guarding the other suspects.)

When all suspects have been arrested and the civilians in the room have been cuffed too, this guide repeats itself at the next door.

( My second guide, not as good as the first one but hey I enjoyed making it.)
( Couldnt post it earlier due to the Host switch)
__________________

http://www.sog-team.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29583

http://www.sog-team.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31519

NEEDED TO BE REGISTERED TO SEE THIS TEXT IN ORIGINAL PLUS PICTURES THIS TEXT IS WITHOUT PICTURES

but its worthy SOG site is cool and helpful




No Retreat No Surrender
 
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