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Forums » Discussions » Tactics and Techniques » Debate - Stealth Entry
Debate - Stealth Entry
RaptorDate: Friday, 2013-02-22, 07:59 | Message # 1
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I currently had a nice discussion with Rye at the SAS forum (althought it was off-topic): http://www.sasclan.org/modules....tart=15

Rye criticized especially the crouching on room entry because it's unrealistic and it makes the team stuck in the fatal funnel.
We talked about the realistm issue already many times and I still have the same opinion: in real-life it's easy to keep close physical contact with your pointman and place your muzzel at/above his shoulder to cover him even when he is standing or moving. But in games you don't have this close contact and if you try to cover a standing pointman, friendly fire can happen very easily. Therefore a crouching pointman is the in-game option that comes closest to the real-life formation in my eyes.
But Rye has a good point with his second argument: the team spends pretty much time in the fatal funnel this way. And actually our current stealth entry makes only sense if you can use the door as shield. If that isn't possible, then you have to clear 2 hard corners at the same time, which is very difficult for a single operator. Even if you use the door as shield, our stealth entry is a slow scanning of the room rather than room clearence. And that makes only sense if you don't expect any hostile contacts in the room. Thinking about the cons we might use our stealth entry to often at the moment.

As a result I suggest the following small changes of our tactics:
- we use our stealth entry with a crouching pointman only if the leader explicitly orders a stealth entry; this option should be used only when the team is not compromised and you don't expect any tangos inside the room
- a "dry entry" (swat4: "open and clear") is made dynamically by default
- the entry after a gas nade should also be made dynamically (Swat4: we can still wait until the gas vanished to have a clear view)

Rye also suggested to adjust the pace of the dynamic entry. Actually if you watch videos of real swat or military CQB trainings, the guys enter a room pretty often without a tacaid and walking rather than running. This way they keep a steady aim. I would like to test the dry entry and also the difference between walking and running today at your force-on-force training. I'm afraid that the walkig mode in Swat4 (even in SAS mod) is too slow, but we'll see wink


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
LuisDate: Friday, 2013-02-22, 14:12 | Message # 2
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I agree with whatever the comission votes for (i dont realy have many options :D)

Anyway, I would like to remind that this is only a game, therefore getting an 110% realism gameplay its near to impossible...


 
BoooneDate: Friday, 2013-02-22, 14:22 | Message # 3
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1. Stealth/Slow entry
Thinking about it, I actually favor the method of going in with the pointman standing as it is a much more fluid motion, is also, as already said, more realistic and in general it offers a better feeling (at least that's what I think personally).

I believe this is only dependent upon what kind of room you are facing. If it's a hallway or a room that can easily be separated into multiple sections, the slow entry, with point crouching should be the one of choice, as long as hostiles are not expected.

We should, however, not change, what we have been using until now. But what I think we should do: Implement two separate movements, which the leader will have at his disposal. The stealth/slow entry should stay what it was until now, and the entry with pointman standing should perhaps from now on be "dry entry".

2. Dry entry
I don't think this should be dynamic by default. If you want it dynamic, just call it out additionally.

3. Gas entry
If the gas covers you (as in: you enter with the gas), you go with a "dry entry" movement (as defined above: all standing, and walking). If you enter after the gas, the entry should be dynamic.

4. Testing the pace
I was somewhat trying to imitate this in my leading the last few times, but I noticed how running does not really fit this pattern. Running makes it all very disorganized very quickly, and stopping to shoot really breaks the pace about immediately. We should try this, however I don't think the force-on-force training leaves much option for this. I rather suggest to try this in a private session with no topic but discussing these options and trying stuff out.




Message edited by Booone - Friday, 2013-02-22, 14:23
 
RyeDate: Saturday, 2013-02-23, 01:23 | Message # 4
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No, no, this isn't just based off realism. I stated it to SAS because I believed they were using it in an inappropriate fashion where it was virtually a deterrent rather than a productive aspect to an entry. The way they were using it in my eyes created more cons than pros which increases the disparity between what should and shouldn't be used, or at least what is and isn't advisable. To back up my claims I offered solutions and related it to both games and real life.
 
RaptorDate: Saturday, 2013-02-23, 08:59 | Message # 5
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Quote (Booone)
But what I think we should do: Implement two separate movements, which the leader will have at his disposal.
Ahm, that's what I suggested above: "stealth entry" = pointman crouching, "dry entry" = pointman standing. And since the later option is probably used more often, I would use the Swat4 command "Move and Clear" for a dry entry.

Quote (Booone)
2. Dry entryI don't think this should be dynamic by default.
I already discussed the terminology with Rye. Look at our basic training and you'll see that we have defined a stealth movement as a movement with the goal to search for contacts/target indicators without being spotted.
But a smooth, fluent entry of the whole team behind a standing pointman doesn't has this goal. It's a movement relying on speed (the team needs to get out of the fatal funnel asap, no stop in the doorway!). Once the pointman started the entry, there is no turning back (yes, you can abort a stealth entry and withdraw). We'll have to confront every contact in the room. Plus the team will try to triangulate fire at possible targets. All this are characteristics of a dynamic action. No matter if you walk or run into the room.

Quote (Booone)
Running makes it all very disorganized very quickly, and stopping to shoot really breaks the pace about immediately.
Not sure what you are talking about here.

Anyway since we had this techincal problem yesterday at the training, we should really organize a new one to test this stuff. Btw I think a force on force training is just the right place to test our action times against human reaction times. The reaction time of the Swat4 AI varies occasionally between Lucky Luck and my grandmother (ofc we'll have to test new movements against this AI sooner or later, simply because we use them in-game).


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
ShadowManuDate: Sunday, 2013-02-24, 00:31 | Message # 6
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Quote (Raptor)
The reaction time of the Swat4 AI varies occasionally between Lucky Luck and my grandmother
Just Epic.


 
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