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Forums » Discussions » Tactics and Techniques » [Arma2]ACE First Aid
[Arma2]ACE First Aid
RaptorDate: Friday, 2013-03-29, 12:31 | Message # 1
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The ACE first aid system is pretty complex and it’s documentation kinda incomplete. The best tutorial I saw so far is from SwissMaverick, but even there a few aspects are missing (probably because they were not implemented in older versions of ACE).

So let me gather what I know from various sources and my own experience.

Bleeding:
- whenever you are hit by a bullet or fragment you start to bleed in various degrees
- it’s indicated by red flashing edges of your screen, the heavier you bleed the more of your screen turns red
- if not stopped, bleeding will lead to unconsciousness and  death
- Bandage: stops small bleeding
- Bandage Kit: stops heavier bleeding
- CAT (combat application tourniquet): stops heavy bleeding at limbs, but it also stops blood circulation in the limb. Therefore in RL it must be removed soon, otherwise the limb will die (not sure how/if this applies to ACE). Soldiers with a CAT are marked with a T (displayed when you examine). The use of CATs might be limited to medics (I’m not sure on this point).

Pain:
- whenever you get hurt, you’ll feel pain
- it’s indicated by white flashing edges of your screen, the more pain you feel the more of your screen turns white
- pain leads to unconsciousness (especially in combination with physical effort like sprinting) and also affects your aim
- Morphine: removes all pain permanently, an overdose has negative effects! Depending on the missions settings, morphine might be used by medics only. (I'm not sure whether you suffer negative effects while under the influence of one dose of morphine)
- Stabilization: if no morphine is available, you can stabilize the patient which removes 50% of the current pain and tries to bring an unconscious patient back up. But for non-medics this option takes a lot of time (2 minutes).

Unconsciousness:
- pain and bleeding can make you black out
- Epinephrine: raises the heartbeat frequency and makes unconscious patients conscious again. Don’t use epi until all bleedings are stopped, otherwise the patient will bleed out faster! Epi might not be effective if the patient still suffers from pain. Similar to morphine, epi might be available only for medics. I’m not sure which negative effects an overdose of epi has in ACE.
- CPR (Cardiopulmonary resuscitation): adds 20 seconds to the respawn timer. Depending on the mission settings, unconscious players are respawned after a fixed time. CPR delays this automatic respawn to allow medical treatment.

So the steps of first aid:
1. stop bleeding
2. unconscious patient and probably close to respawn: use CPR
3. patient is NOT already under the influence of morphine: give morphine
3. b: patient is unconscious, NOT under the influence of morphine and no morphine is available: stabilize
4. unconscious patient: give epinephrine
_________________________________
5. to remove further negative effects (e.g. poor amining with injured arms, not able to walk with injured legs), you need a medic with a medikit
6. depending on the mission settings, 100% healing is only possible close to medical facilities (e.g. medivac vehicles, medical tents)

Note that different players can provide first aid for the same patient at the same time (e.g. execute CPR while the medic stops the bleeding).


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RyeDate: Saturday, 2013-03-30, 00:08 | Message # 2
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The CAT can be used by anyone who has one. To say ACE love their 'realism', by far one of the worst medical systems ever made.

Message edited by Rye - Saturday, 2013-03-30, 00:09
 
RaptorDate: Saturday, 2013-03-30, 09:44 | Message # 3
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Why do you think so? I like it.

"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
LuisDate: Saturday, 2013-03-30, 11:55 | Message # 4
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I agree with Raptor, you think its unrealistic because every player can use a CAT?

 
RyeDate: Saturday, 2013-03-30, 14:42 | Message # 5
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No, not because every player can use a CAT. Every soldier is taught to use their personal tourniquet in reality. It's poor realistically simply because it applies no realistic principle to anything medical. It's a checklist system based off simple problem solving, not anything with actual medical substance. Epinephrine is just one of the many examples of poor medicine. They base a gunshot wound penetrating anywhere in the body to an instant 'cardiac arrest' event, and then criteria unconsciousness in the same instant and epinephrine used to 'wake them up'. It's stupid.
 
RaptorDate: Saturday, 2013-03-30, 15:08 | Message # 6
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Quote (Rye)
They base a gunshot wound penetrating anywhere in the body to an instant 'cardiac arrest' event, and then criteria unconsciousness in the same instant and epinephrine used to 'wake them up'.
I think that's not true. Not every hit in ACE makes you unconscious. And I think if you become unconscious because of pain, morphine wakes you up without epi. So if one needs epi, he is unconscious because of bloodloss, which would indicate a cardiac arrest, wouldn't it?
(Disclaimer: no, I have no clue about first aid except the stuff needed for a driver license in Germany, and I'm also not an expert for ACE.)

Anyway, I have never seen a realistic wound system in any computer game.
The ACE system forces you to carry different medical supplies. When a teammate is injured or even down, you have to think about which treatment he needs (although it's not very complex) and the treatment takes time, which forces your fireteam to hold and defend the position. Kinda similar to AA3. Imho the right balance between realism and game action. And for sure far better then the vanilla first aid system of Arma2.
Ofc one could make the system more complex, but I don't think the game experience would become better and honestly there are enough people who can't even handle the current "simple" system.


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RyeDate: Sunday, 2013-03-31, 02:15 | Message # 7
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They base unconsciousness off needing an epinephrine to either wake up or stay conscious. You can ask any PA/Dr/Paramedic/Nurse and they will tell you it wouldn't be used. Epinephrine on the battlefield is strictly used for anaphylaxis. biggrin Which just makes you laugh at ACE's thoughts on that implementation method. "What can we use to wake them up?" says Sickboy. "I read one article one time about this drug" says Rocko. Even a poor AA3 system with smelling salts would of been better.

ACE isn't complex. It may be a lot to take in at first but you learn over the course of a week or two that it's a checklist system. If this = that. Not if this = possibility for this, this and this. There's no real diagnostic process, there's only a condition and treatment. Bleeding = bandage, pain = morphine. I agree it's better than vanilla but no where near where it should of been. If you look at the code it's thousands of lines of scripts for something so simple, and it took them a year plus, it's pathetic. And if you talk about balance between gameplay and realism, ACE has never looked for that - they got lazy and decided to give up on anything medical because of all the feedback they received - if you look at their other features it's never about gameplay, hence the mod motto.

The team I'm in for CMS are working on a better system. Diagnosis actually comes into play. If people can't handle that, fine, it's not for everyone. It's still WIP but we're getting there, we already have more than ACE it's just Alpha stage means we still need to work into the mechanics up to Beta and then to release. I hope it gives ACE3 some friendly competition.

 
RaptorDate: Sunday, 2013-03-31, 06:27 | Message # 8
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Competition is always nice. Feel free to give us a heads-up whenever your mod is released, and don't be shy to post links here wink

"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
RyeDate: Sunday, 2013-04-07, 14:26 | Message # 9
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Our Alpha is here:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthr....eleased

Use our issue tracker for requests and bugs here:
https://dev-heaven.net/projects/cms/activity

It's only an Alpha remember, a LOT of content has not been included in the Alpha and mechanics are still being worked on.
 
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