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Forums » Discussions » Tactics and Techniques » Realism of Crouching/Kneeling
Realism of Crouching/Kneeling
BoooneDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 12:24 | Message # 1
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After a smaller discussion with Raptor we came to the conclusion that the extent at which we currently use crouching and kneeling (most prominently in SWAT) is not very realistic, which is of course in conflict with our philosophy.

Swat4 does not accurately portray how crouching and kneeling work. In real life it takes time and energy to go into a crouching or kneeling position and getting back up from it - neither of these aspects are represented in SWAT. In a real life CQB situation bowing down to kneel/crouch is not worth the effort (as I said, it costs time and energy) and thus almost never done.

In addition to that, moving crouched takes very much energy and can hardly be done in a fashion as in Swat4; the operators in Swat4 are roughly half the target they are when standing, which is realistic for kneeling but not for crouched moving.

Arma2, portraying crouching and kneeling more realistically, makes it, as in real life, pretty much useless in CQB.

TL;DR

How much we use crouching and kneeling is unrealistic. From now on we should start to limit the use of crouching and kneeling to a realistic extent to test how good this works in Swat4; and maybe later have a revising look at some of our SOPs in this regard.


 
LuisDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 14:31 | Message # 2
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Imo only the "movement" should be changed. The fact that we crouch on a stack up its pretty realistic. Well not exacly realistic but its an idea... =P

Our movement should now be something like ITS when they do the police line in which the guy behinds you stacks on your shoulder as you move.


 
BoooneDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 14:57 | Message # 3
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Quote Luis ()
The fact that we crouch on a stack up its pretty realistic. Well not exacly realistic but its an idea... =P
Well, there is a certainly a bit of a problem with tac-aids here, but I guess we can figure out how exactly to do that and whether or not crouching is really necessary albeit unrealistic.

Quote Luis ()
Our movement should now be something like ITS when they do the police line in which the guy behinds you stacks on your shoulder as you move.
Something like that was also a thought I had. The coverman should, if he covers the same or roughly the same direction as the pointman simply move a bit to the side so he can shoot past the pointman. This means, though, that the pointman can not quickly move to the side and shouldn't.


 
RaptorDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 16:18 | Message # 4
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Quote Booone ()
(most prominently in SWAT)

Actually I think it's only in Swat4 because in all other games it takes more time to go to crouch and it affects your aim negatively.

Quote Booone ()
In a real life CQB situation bowing down to kneel/crouch is not worth the effort (as I said, it costs time and energy) and thus almost never done.

Hmm, mb we should distinguish here between stealth and dynamic movements. Idk who these guys are and they do enough mistakes, but it seems like crouching works for them pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtYEdqxdBYE

Do we have any real-life sources concerning this issue?


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
BoooneDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 16:53 | Message # 5
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An army document about CQB and MOUT: http://www.globalsecurity.org/militar....ch3.htm

Explaining many aspects and situations one might face in CQB there is little to no mention of crouching or kneeling.

And I presume this is not much of an issue in real life because all restrictions around crouching are just natural and it is generally only used when needed and not all the time (e.g. the pointman in our current SOPs).


 
RaptorDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 18:12 | Message # 6
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Not to mention something is not the same as to mention not to do this thing.

But I agree, we should check where and when the crouching really makes sense (and would make sense in RL), and where it's just a bad habit.


"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9


Message edited by Raptor - Tuesday, 2013-11-19, 18:13
 
RaptorDate: Friday, 2013-11-22, 18:25 | Message # 7
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After the training today I definitively think that we are using crouching too much atm. We should really use it only in a few situations, namely during stealth movements, when taking cover, when breaching with a BSG and when covering from a static position for more than 30 seconds. The team actions look far more realistic this way.

"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
LuisDate: Monday, 2013-11-25, 17:13 | Message # 8
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Quote Raptor ()
namely during stealth movements
It seems kind of pointless if only the poitman is crouching on stealth movement because irl the suspects could see the rest of the team standing... (when moving in formation)... Just pointing that out...


 
RaptorDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-26, 10:25 | Message # 9
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And in Swat4 the suspects can't see the rest of the standing team when the pointman is crouched? Don't get your point here mate.

"Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at."
Murphy's Laws of Combat #9
 
SAS_MasterDate: Tuesday, 2013-11-26, 14:47 | Message # 10
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Been noted elsewhere before, but crouching can help minimise your profile and if it's stealth, what's the rush?
 
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